Hybrid and Remote Work: Impacts on Nonprofits

At our monthly Social Impact Advisory Group meeting, we wanted to explore the opportunities and implications for Nonprofits who have hybrid or remote workers. We invited moderator Grainger Marburg and panelists, Shana Peete  and Becky Barton to discuss the changes in their work following the world’s transition into more hybrid and remote work. The following panel presentation was edited for length and clarity in digital format.

Shana Peete: I am CEO of Center for Excellence in Nonprofits (CEN). We are a nonprofit capacity adding organization. I like to say we are a nonprofit that helps other nonprofits nonprofit better. We offer workshops, cohort programs, and consultations that are for the benefit of nonprofit leaders, and sometimes that’s leaders with a capital L, sometimes that’s leaders with a lowercase l whether they’re paid, unpaid, board members, etc. 

We do all that we do with I.D.E.A.L. in mind. It’s kind of like DEI, but with the addition of accessibility and liberation. I’m just very excited to talk today about remote work and some of the things that we have learned firsthand at CEN. We have the fortunate position to have our fingers on the pulse with our network of 10,000 leaders and organizations. I look forward to being able to have a robust conversation with you all today, and thank you for having me.  

Becky Barton: I’m with People415 and we work with small businesses [and nonprofits] generally up and down from about 50 employees. Most folks at the leadership level may be a little intimidated by their HR matters, and that’s where we can come in.

We provide outsourced services, including recruiting, and we have about 60 percent of our businesses in the nonprofit space. But certainly remote work is applicable to a lot of different industries so hopefully, folks find a lot of little nuggets to take with them today.

Grainger: So I’m going to start with Shana: tell us a little bit about how your organization is set up in terms of hybrid, remote, and fully remote work. And how have you generally navigated this successfully over the time that you’ve been there? 

Shana: We are in our 30th year of service to the nonprofit space. Pre-COVID, we were fully in person. We delivered workshops, cohort programs, consultations, all in person.

As soon as COVID hit we pivoted to take everything online and went to a strictly online model. As the world has opened back up, we have seen another shift. I would still say the majority of our work is online. More and more we’re having requests for our consultation practice to be in person. So we’re navigating that shift and it’s been interesting. 

We have been fortunate that during COVID when all of that devastation, all those things were happening, we experienced a lot of growth actually. And we saw our geographic footprint expand just tremendously. So we have clients all over the country now.

We’re still primarily focused on the Bay area and the Northern California region, but our little tentacles have gone a little bit farther as a result now. When I think about internally, on our team, we had folks who were grappling with the high cost of living in the Bay Area.

We’ve learned a lot of lessons during our time since and how we can be flexible and some areas where we are not able to be as flexible, and how we’re able to build community and build a culture from a distance. 

So we had a number of people on the team who relocated and it put us to the test to learn. Is it really required that you’re here and in the Bay Area? Is it really required that you come into the office? We’ve learned a lot of lessons during our time since and how we can be flexible and some areas where we are not able to be as flexible, and how we’re able to build community and build a culture from a distance. 

Grainger: It’s interesting because also with the Leaders Institute, when I was part of it years ago, we only had local recruits. In this recent cohort, you had a few from different states and things like that. So that’s an interesting benefit that I hadn’t thought about. You actually can now reach more nonprofits across the country. Becky, what has been the biggest surprise benefit for you in terms of how this culture has shifted since the pandemic in terms of workplace?

Becky: Certainly, I would build off of what both of you have said there. The ability to attract and engage with a workforce that is beyond, say, the Bay Area or where a nonprofit may be based. 

Now that employees are all over the country, there’s definitely a diversification in the workforce which has been a nice outcome of this hybrid or remote working environment. We’ve also seen quite a bit of a shift in just the mindset that folks that are remote can be productive. We had worked with some organizations that were very reluctant about remote work, especially at the beginning, especially in the nonprofit space.

A lot of smaller nonprofits maybe didn’t have the IT resources to get everyone working remotely. But once that was in place, I think that managers and leadership were pleasantly surprised at how productive remote folks can be. But something that struck me as even a bigger benefit that I have noticed is connection.

To see folks in their home environment makes us able to connect in a way that we didn’t always see in a traditional office space.

It’s almost surprising because we are remote, but being able to see folks in their natural habitat, you can see what’s behind them in their office, the books on their shelves, maybe a sport team they support, their taste in art, a pet sauntering by, or a child that might pop their head in the office on a Zoom which  has allowed for even more connection. To see folks in their home environment makes us able to connect in a way that we didn’t always see in a traditional office space.

When I was thinking about something surprising about the hybrid environment that definitely came to mind because we’re surrounded by our own unique, personal brand within our home space and so it’s really allowed that to bleed into the workplace.  

Shana: Folks are fatigued of Zoom, so even though it can be done, should it be done online? And with some of our clients, we have folks that their teams need our services and they are hybrid. So then we have to figure out, okay, for this one we’re gonna be in person or for this one we’re gonna be online.

Even if we are in person, we’re serving folks in two different dimensions. So that’s been another interesting aspect: there are implications around whether we are in person together as a team. And sometimes we are, but sometimes even if we are physically in a space, we’re serving people who are online or they are split.

Grainger: I happen to see a comment or a question, and I just wanted to build on that a little bit in terms of the equity issue especially with your ideal kind of framework. Are there equity issues in terms of those who actually can do remote work like others can or can’t?

Shana: There definitely were equity issues. One example: we had a client with hundreds of employees, a nonprofit, and there were certain roles that were able to be hybrid and certain roles that had to come in every day. They were front liners. Sometimes it’s about navigating the emotion that kind of comes with that. When you see people who are like, I got a chance to be on the treadmill this morning because I’m working from home and you’ve got other people that are like, I’m wearing a mask and a whole, like hazmat suit and just hoping for the best, right? 

So we’ve definitely seen that and we’ve seen how organizations were able to bend and flex. Sometimes it’s offering different kinds of perks. It’s offering flex time or trying to look for pieces of a person’s job that might be accomplishable offsite and giving the freedom to do those when they can.

Another issue would be with regard to internet access and things like that. I know for CEN, we’ve started a stipend monthly for folks who are relying pretty much 100 percent on their internet connections to get them through to be able to do the work.

Grainger: Becky, kind of building on that, what should nonprofits keep in mind in your opinion when thinking about, you know, hiring new people or in person meetings or events in terms of productivity, the culture, the safety, equity and fairness, all those good things?

Becky: I think this is such a great question and so many layers to it. About 60 percent of our clients are nonprofit and the balance is the other 40 is other industries in the for profit space, but I do think that a lot of the challenges are the same.

For employees that are working at home that do not have an office to go to, they need to be compensated for any operational expense that they’re taking on. And that could be a phone, it could be the internet, it could be utilities. We’ve seen a lot of different nonprofits come up with a general monthly stipend that they give that feels fair to both sides.

I think another really important thing to be aware of is your own bias as a manager or as a leader in your organization, because there’s hundreds of biases that exist. One that rears its head in this remote environment is the affinity bias. Who are you making connections with in your workforce because, you know, maybe you just get along better with them, or because you have more in common?

Maybe you went to the same school together or you played the same sport or whatever that might be and making sure that you’re not giving those folks access to that opportunity or even that promotion over others. So you have to be very, very conscious about that.

Really challenging how you’re receiving your employees and how you’re interacting is even more important in this remote environment, where maybe there aren’t as many touches through the day.

The halo and horns effect bias is another one that rears its head, which is either seeing all good or seeing all bad in a person based on maybe limited interactions. Really challenging how you’re receiving your employees and how you’re interacting is even more important in this remote environment, where maybe there aren’t as many touches through the day. But to counter that, I do think being very intentional to have regular cadence to connect is important. 

There’s ways to make sure that folks do stay connected and you can continue to build on your culture. Blocking off really focused time is important. When we’re in an office, we can visually read if someone’s busy or not. With remote work, being more intentional and over communicating your schedule availability and your unavailability, to all levels of the organization I think is important. 

Shana: At CEN, we maintained our physical space during the time of the pandemic and so we have had folks who did not have great internet capabilities — sometimes it’s the neighborhood that they live in or the type of connection that they have selected for their homes, and whatever it may be. So we offer the option of utilizing the office and again, to your point, this kind of broader point that is managing that human component, right?

Grainger: Well, Shana, my next question to you was around those kind of issues or concerns. I’m not sure if you feel like you addressed that already, but have you seen more common themes, in terms of the other nonprofits with which you work?

Shana: Burnout is such a real topic in the nonprofit space to start with. That’s why you’ll probably hear me allude to it a number of times, because I think we don’t do enough to sort of keep it in the forefront and talk about the reality of it.

Not having great boundaries around work is one of the things that I’ve experienced. And so just really being present with the fact that that can go from top to bottom at organizations, it could be,  you know, systemic. Just as was mentioned in the comments here, many folks work longer and harder when they’re at home and other folks may abuse it. Nobody’s watching, so I’m going to go and do all my errands or not work at all today. And, you know, how are you showing up as a leader? When you don’t want to necessarily micromanage, but you may be observing things that, you know, call into question folks’ approaches to work. 

So I’m sure there are multitudes of ways to address that, but open and clear communication around it is important. I would also list it as one of those challenges in this new digital world where, if you write something down in a Zoom chat or whatever, the intent doesn’t necessarily translate in the way that it’s always wanted. Things that you might clear up in one brief conversation take 10 emails. Or if we’re working asynchronously, it might take two to three days, as opposed to back in the day when you just passed each other, you could say, hey, look at this thing sign off right here then it’s done. So those are definitely some of the challenges. 

I would add to that culture setting. To me that’s probably the top one that I would name. You sort of mentioned it earlier, Grainger, where, if we’re not seeing one another, that has traditionally been the key to establishing trust, establishing rapport. A lot of folks didn’t think you could build close relationships with people at a far distance over a few months period, but you really can. It is possible. It just takes a different kind of effort and a different kind of discipline. 

Grainger: So just before I switch over to Becky again, can you say a little more about the boundary setting? On the one hand people have more freedom when they’re working from their desk at home but sometimes the expectations may be even greater because you don’t need time to get to meetings, you can basically be back to back to back, which is actually almost squeezing them more for the time that they would have had to decompress or to kind of make a transition. 

I would recommend being really honest with yourself and take note of how your days are set up, taking note of where you are your sharpest and best and where you might be a little crankier or more distracted. Then having that grace with folks on your team as well and maybe starting to have open conversations around that. 

Shana: Absolutely. I think we all probably have had a learning arc during this time of COVID to sort of understand what works well for us, what pushes us too far. I would recommend being really honest with yourself and take note of how your days are set up, taking note of where you are your sharpest and best and where you might be a little crankier or more distracted. Then having that grace with folks on your team as well and maybe starting to have open conversations around that. Sometimes you have to be a little bit more heavy-handed as a leader. It could be two-way communications around what are the expectations, maybe acknowledging there are multiple ways to achieve those expectations but setting some sort of basis for how you’re going to approach them without pushing people beyond what is healthy. 

Grainger: Becky, I’m thinking about how we’re talking about the transition from being in person to being at home to being in the middle. But there’s also generational differences in terms of how Gen Z and the millennials are reacting to this kind of hybrid and what they might be missing out on. Have you heard a concern about that in terms of what you’ve observed, Becky?  

Becky: For sure, and I want to acknowledge Shana’s sort of approach with her employee population that I’m hearing her sort of resonate throughout it. She’s really asking the employees to be part of the discussion, part of the identifying challenges, part of the solutions, and I just think that’s so impactful.

Advocacy is important. I’ve had some employees say, ‘you’re too busy, I didn’t want to bother you,’ but my job is to make sure you’re successful. You absolutely should be bothering me because you’re not, first of all, but we’re going to be better because of it. 

The newer generation coming into the workforce absolutely responds to that sort of empowerment. I think on the employee side, if I were, say, a candidate coming into an organization and I’m younger in my career, I would ask a lot of questions in the interview process to ensure that the organization really aligns with my needs, my values, and the culture I’m looking for. Advocacy is important. I’ve had some employees say, ‘you’re too busy, I didn’t want to bother you,’ but my job is to make sure you’re successful. You absolutely should be bothering me because you’re not, first of all, but we’re going to be better because of it. 

I think showing up in person when those opportunities arise is really important. If there is even a social event or something like that, folks should be coming in and showing up and making sure they’re staying in front of their peer groups, staying in front of managers, and other coworkers to build those relationships in person when the opportunity is there.

On the flip side, though, it’s not all on the employee. The employer should be doing some things too. You want to course correct early and often because the touch points may be more limited. Our younger generation is also very much a fan of collaboration versus competing with each other, so creating diverse teams that work together on projects is a really great way for the team to benefit and create a culture of continuous learning, iteration, collaboration, empowerment at the lower levels, all good stuff. 

I do see a lot of organizations, even if they are fully remote, they’re doing something in person and maybe flying folks in one time a year or quarterly. There is some emphasis on in person, particularly if it comes to something social, I do see a little bit more of that.

Grainger: I do think that social piece shouldn’t be minimized because I was just mentioning to Shana before we started that this concern by the Surgeon General Vivek Murthy around what he considers to be an epidemic of kind of workplace loneliness. I think that it can become horribly lonely and isolating. So I think that’s another thing that we have to keep in mind as we get more and more efficient with this kind of online way of doing things. Why don’t we open up for some questions now of the panelists?

Illir Zherka: Remote work has made all sorts of things possible, certainly for me and there are a lot of benefits. Shana, you talked about, you run into someone, in the hall, you walk to their office, you say, hey, take a look at this, and you’re done in a minute. I miss that, because you are a lot more efficient, but some things just take a lot longer. One of the things that I’ve tried with the people I work with is to have a policy of just being able to call.  It’s a version of like, ‘Hey, I’m going to step into your office,’ but I have to say, because our culture has changed that there’s always that little voice like is it okay for me to call someone who’s actually working for me? Because now we have a culture of, you text first and you don’t call at all and certainly, you don’t leave a voicemail. I wonder if you all have tried to figure out how to substitute that ability to walk into someone’s office and just have a quick conversation with something else, whether it’s a phone call, whether it’s a tool or something else that you all might have come up with. 

Shana:We use Zoom chat which is a lot like Slack and other platforms. You can do a voice message as opposed to a typed message, and that sometimes can help with those things that you’re like, hey, we can’t just step into your office to say X, Y, or Z, but the intonation of my voice, that ability to sort of humanize the message, has helped. On top of that, they also have offered a video message version. I might even use one of those tools to say, Hey, I have a really long thing to tell you. Can you call me? You know, can we talk? I need like 10 minutes.

Becky: Sometimes things just take longer in a remote environment to get done. If you have a back and forth over email I think it’s really important to be mindful of that and know when a quick 15 minute huddle will just get the job done right and get some things over the finish line.

Using Slack or other messaging apps to say, ‘hey, do you have time for a quick huddle?’ That’s a very common practice for us and our clients you know, both for profit and not for profit and. And I think it is common courtesy. I think in the office folks did meander in, but I don’t know if it was always appreciated.

Having that courtesy to your coworkers, and others that you work alongside to say, look, is this a good time for you, or let’s find a mutually beneficial time is a really great win. 

Katharine Earhart: I had a question which was specific to board members. I’m curious if on this call, anyone has any thoughts as to whether it’s an added benefit that now people can Zoom in for their board meeting, or if it’s hindered working with the board because everybody’s remote. 

Grainger: I’m on a board that is a national board, even though we’re based here in the Bay Area, it’s now three quarters Zoom and one quarter it’s kind of the annual in person. I have to say that while it is convenient, I do wish that we had more face to face. I feel less connected, but I’d love to hear if others have thoughts about that. 

Sandra Becker: I’ve seen clients who tried to segue by doing, partially online, partially in person. I think that’s the worst scenario. I find that board members who are on the Zoom side of things don’t end up participating as much as the people in the room. I’ve seen my clients start to require meetings in person again, because I think it just has a whole different dynamic and it encourages participation.  

Petra Silton: Boards don’t meet that often, right? And there’s so much stuff that comes up that is a little more “water cooler-like”.  So if you’re actually there, you have the opportunity to have those discussions. I am on a board that’s kind of national and international and so we will probably never meet in person, but for the local ones, I think it’s really important when you can. 

Shana: It’s interesting I see this topic is lighting up right here. I think boards typically are made up of folks who represent generations that appreciate in person. Presence means your attention. Presence means camaraderie and rapport. It’s important to note there’s generally an age range of folks that serve on boards, as we answer this question. I’ve also experienced that boards think they want to go back in person until they need to go back in person.

Sometimes it’s like the idea of it is glamorized when we have not had it in a while, but then we start realizing like, oh my gosh, the traffic was terrible getting here. And why did we pick this place? It’s so far from the freeway and the, and those little things kind of start to stack back up a little bit.

So I’ve noticed some organizations picking to do kind of a 50-50, where we have so many meetings a year and X number will be in person either because it’s the holidays or because it’s a very heavy business time of year for us to have the business meeting, those kinds of things.